Cdn renouncing American Citizenship - have questions

sykes2000
New Member



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 3
Location: Washington State

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:32 pm

 

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I have a 17 yr old son who is presently living and going to school in the US. He has dual Canadian and American citizenship because he was born in Canada and moved with me at age 9 to the US. I married an American and after the 3 yr wait became an American citizen. My son gained American citizenshp (as a minor attached to my case) when I did. He now plans to return to live and work in Canada when he graduates highschool next June. The question we have is about renouncing his American citizenship and how it will affect him. He is supposed to sign up for selective service at 18 as an American. He will move back to Canada before that 30 day window expires. If he goes to an American consul and renounces his citizenship once he gets to Canada, will there be any issues with the selective service? Will there be problems for him at the border if he were to return to the US as a Canadian to visit me? Thanks for any information you can pass along. Every website the American gov't has is very vague about this topic.

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Reba
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Canuck in NC

Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 1451
Location: North Carolina

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:09 am

 

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I do believe that renouncing ones citizenship is fairly detailed and arduous process, and not done often enough that anyone on an internet message forum would be knowledgable about.

I'd suggest you speak with a lawyer, and/or a US citizneship official.
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Steven
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Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1587
Location: Calgary

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:37 am

 

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I wouldn't do it just to avoid selective service registration, if he renounces his US citizenship it can cause all kinds of nasty problems down the road.

If you really want to avoid the draft, the time to do it is when a law is passed requiring a draft, before they start issuing draft notices. Frankly the chances of that happening are basically nil, short of some sort of national emergency that would almost certainly lead to the draft in Canada.

If he's got an SSN now, then the IRS are aware of his existence, so he must file a US tax return once he becomes an adult. Renouncing US citizenship is basically carte blanche to the IRS to refuse to allow him to move his tax home to the US if he ever wants to live in the US again, which means the IRS has the ability to stop any kind of US entry if they so wish. Not a problem for simple visits, because he pays no tax, but if he ever wants to work in the US, forget it.

The IRS does this merely for people who give up LPR status, so renouncing US citizenship I would say is a severely unwise decision to make. Imagine for example if he wants to get married to a US citizen at some future point.

Bear in mind the reason websites are vague on this topic is because it basically boils down to what the State Dept. thinks about the case in question.

A 17-year-old doing this without knowing what he will do as an adult sounds like a bad idea to me. Black mark with the State Dept. is not something to volunteer for.
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sykes2000
New Member



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 3
Location: Washington State

Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:12 am

 

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thanks for the input Steve. We're still exploring options, he never wanted to come to the US in the first place, but had to because I was going. I'm finding it hard to convince him to consider keeping the citizenship. I also find it extremely arrogant that the US can tax his Cdn income just because he's an American citizen. He shouldn't have to spend the next 40+ years paying 2 income taxes!
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Steven
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Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1587
Location: Calgary

Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:44 am

 

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As long as his income is under US$85,700 (in 2007 dollars) it's not a big deal, and the Democrats keep saying they're going to repeal that limit (because the Republicans came up with it) but no sign yet.

I find the whole US system rather quaint, the number of times they've tried to abolish the Selective Service system I've lost count of, because it is utterly pointless and useless. I'm sure some Congressman has their offices in his district and wants to protect their jobs or something.

They could just use the Canadian system - i.e. calling up people using SINs, and in fact that's how they will do it in the US if it ever happens.

Moreover US law (the Militia Act) defines who is subject to call up as provided for in the Constitution (national emergency or act of war against the US) and it is:

Any able-bodied person aged 17 to 45 who is capable of bearing arms and who is a US citizen or who has declared their intent to become a US citizen, which I think is from 10 USC 311. Save for a few public officials. The call-up can be done by the President or a Governor.

So basically they can call up any able-bodied adult in the event of a national emergency, and they would doubtless use your SSN to do it. Which is the argument that is always put forward in Congress to abolish Selective Service. "Oh, but it will allow us to identify some of the people most suitable more quickly."

Mmm, yeah, sure it will. Which is why they put your selective service registration on your dogtags - oh no wait, that's your SSN.

Bear in mind there are similar provisions in Canadian law and a lot of other countries, it's just the US makes it more overt.

The only real reason I can see to renounce citizenship of any country is for tax reasons (or because dual citizenship is illegal, e.g. if you're German). But the time to do that is when you're earning lots and lots of money and it's a major issue. (Even then, the US has an "expatriation" tax).

The problem is given the mindset of the US you have no clue what action they might take against former US citizens 20 years from now. For example they might ban them from visiting after Donald Trump buys the Cayman Islands and buggers off there. I'm sure a lot of former US citizens had their eyes bulge out of their heads when the expatriation tax came in a few years ago.

It's not something to volunteer for.
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