Some questions about TN Visa

Hi:

I am a Canadian citizen. I have a B.Sc., M.Sc., and Ph.D in physics. For the past year, I have been doing a postdoc in physics in the U.S. on a TN Visa.

Recently, a bank in New York City offered me a job as a quantitative analyst. My work would involve using models from physics to analyze finanical markets.

I would like to take this position at the bank. Can I do it on a TN Visa? Under which TN designated profession should I apply? I have a B.Sc. in physics, so should I apply as a "Physicist". Could I apply as a "Mathematican", or would I need a B.Sc. in mathematics?

Thanks for your help.

TNApplicant

Well it basically boils down to whether the bank can show they need a physicist, pretty much. I would have thought with a Ph.D in physics they would be convinced you have the mathematical knowledge to go in as a mathematician as well, depends on how the job offer letter is phrased, so and so has a Ph.D in physics and for x years has used these qualifications to create mathematical models and therefore we want him as a mathematician to create similar models for financial purposes, etc.

Given all the stuff in the press about how banks used physicists to model the credit default swap market which led to the current mess, I would have thought USCIS could be convinced of it.

I do wonder whether banks will ever wise up to the fact that there is always a variable in these equations that equals the human element. Humans are frequently irrational, therefore their behaviour cannot be modelled accurately in any formula. I learned that on day 1 in Finance 101. Then they proceeded to teach me endless formulas that modelled human behaviour.

Having said that some of the stock-trading software I've seen used is very clever, but not infallible. As proven recently.

I do wonder whether banks will ever wise up to the fact that there is always a variable in these equations that equals the human element. Humans are frequently irrational, therefore their behaviour cannot be modelled accurately in any formula. I learned that on day 1 in Finance 101. Then they proceeded to teach me endless formulas that modelled human behaviour.

Having said that some of the stock-trading software I've seen used is very clever, but not infallible. As proven recently.

You are absolutely right. Part of my job will be to understand the limitations of mathematical models and to work closely with those who do understand the human element. They key is to do both. The quants and the quals need to continuously talk to each other. We have to try to ensure that a debacle like the current financial crisis never happens again. This will also mean listening to risk analysts, who until now were mostly ignored by managers and executives. Some risk analysts warned that banks were overexposed but were ignored by their managers who wanted to continue to make insane profits by taking insane risks.

But first I need to find out if I can do this work on a TN Visa. Any lawyers here who can advise me?

Your Physics degree might work if you can show the brunt of mathematics courses on your transcripts are significant. Some ports have taken the line that if entering as a Mathematician, then that person is presenting a similar degree for admission, ie. b math.

I would have thought math would be a pretty major component to an education leading to a Ph.D in physics, I'm sure it would be relatively straightforward. Usually they're looking for a four-year degree, well a Ph.D is far beyond that.

Historically, some ports have insisted on the degree be in the field.

It would be relatively straight forward entering as a Physicist, either Bachelor's or advanced.

The problem with the New York ports of entry is the long history of case law that is applied in showing the minimum requirement for entering as a Free Trade Professional in a particular occupation.

Over time, the established requirement has been shown to be a minimum of a Bachelor's degree in the respective field. So to enter as a Mathematician, a TN applicant is presumed to be presenting a Bachelor's degree in Mathematics or a related field at the port of entry.

Others with non-related degrees have been turned away at the border. That is why I suggested he may succeed at with his application at some of the other entry points.

There is no TN category for Quantitative Analyst so a consultation with a lawyer may be required to determine proper category and subclassification.

To enter under the category of Mathematican, would a bachelor's degree in physics be considered a related field? I am a theoretical physicist. For all intents and purposes, I am a mathematican.

Intuitively, I would consider Quantitative Analyst to be a subcategory of Mathematican. Though most quantitative analysts are theoretical physicists, the category of Physicist somehow seems inappropiate to me, probably because it includes experimental physicists.

Perhaps I will ultimately seek a lawyers advice.

P.S. My greatest fear is that I give up my current U.S. job (a post-doc) supported by my current TN Visa, go to the border to apply for a new TN Visa for my future job at the bank, and get rejected. I would then be unemployed. But perhaps this fear is unjustified. Can I apply for a new TN Visa for a future job without nullifying my current TN Visa for my current job? On a related note, can I hold two jobs at the same time under two seperate TN Visas?

It would be relatively straight forward entering as a Physicist, either Bachelor's or advanced.

The problem with the New York ports of entry is the long history of case law that is applied in showing the minimum requirement for entering as a Free Trade Professional in a particular occupation.

Over time, the established requirement has been shown to be a minimum of a Bachelor's degree in the respective field. So to enter as a Mathematician, a TN applicant is presumed to be presenting a Bachelor's degree in Mathematics or a related field at the port of entry.

Others with non-related degrees have been turned away at the border. That is why I suggested he may succeed at with his application at some of the other entry points.

There is no TN category for Quantitative Analyst so a consultation with a lawyer may be required to determine proper category and subclassification.

Perhaps a consultation would establish whether a Quantitative Analyst could be sub classified under Mathematician.

I won't quit my current job until I am absolutely certain I can take my next job.

But is this even a concern? To apply for a new TN Visa for a future job, must I quit my current job supported by my current TN Visa? That is, would an application for a new TN Visa for a future job invalidiate my current TN Visa for my current job?

I read somewhere that it is even possible to hold two TN Visas for two seperate jobs at the same time.

Possibly a Physics degree may be viewed that way. It would depend on the Free Trade Officer that adjudicates your petition.

Don't give notice or quit your job before you find out your prospects for TN eligibility. Many have made this mistake only to go the border and get refused.

You want to get your application right the first time.

I know an excellent immigration lawyer in New York if need be.

The Niagara-Toronto corridor has been particularly precise about this historically. It is known as the concept of a NAFTA Professional. In conjunction with this implicit definition of a Professional, CBP issued internal memos back in 2000 to the various ports that the degree presented for TN admission must be in the field or closely related. The New York ports of entry were among the first to pick up on this new interpretation of the law. Many other ports still ignore it but if they ever started applying it, there would be many more denials everywhere. The most dangerous component is that the law is applied so inconsistently across the board. That spells only one thing, danger!