TN Refused if US Unemployment Rises?

However, I was under he impression that tax status and immigration status are seen as not being the same, nor even related, by the different agencies involved (IRS, USCIS). For example, the IRS would consider a person working on a TN-1 a resident, USCIS does not consider him a resident. And they do not see any contradiction in that. Maybe there really is no reason to couple immigration and tax residence status together, even if they use the same word "resident." They mean different things by it. Therefore, the tax treaties do not have to conflict with the immigration treaty provisions of NAFTA.

Basically it's not clear. The IRS does base their tax forms around people's immigration status, for example if you are F-1 and filing as a non-resident you should file Form 8843. With TN-1 though it's utterly unclear. The regs require your stay by definition to be "temporary", so does that by implication mean that you are non-resident for tax purposes? And the treaty and the Act have different passages in them. And the tax treaty in Article IV has a definition of residency but how does that fit in with NAFTA? Plus if there is a conflict, which is supreme, NAFTA or the tax treaty, because usually it would be a trade treaty but the tax treaty has been amended several times since which could indicate a different intent by the parties to the treaty.

Even the lawyers from the IRS can't figure it out, apparently. It would have to be clarified in court.

Forms at the end of the day mean nothing, case law on taxes is that you must comply with the law, even if the form doesn't elicit the correct information from you to comply with the law, but the law is a huge mess so complying with that law let alone creating a form is hard.

First of all as you point out there would have to be a ruling as to whether the United States has even implemented NAFTA correctly, because that is a preliminary step before working out what the overall intent of the parties has been.

I think it's important not to 'romanticize' living and working in the states under a TN-1. It can be as heartbreaking as it can be rewarding.

I think that is very well said.

Unfortunately, some people just have to learn for themselves the precariousness of the TN, they can't just take someone else's word for it. Regardless of all the legalese on the forms and whatnot, they're still going to pack up all their worldly goods and head for the border.

I don't think TN-1 is as bad as H-1B which is what I was attempting to point out above until we got bogged down in legalese. TN-1 can be re-granted indefinitely and is so much easier to get than H-1B, the main sticking point with it always seems to be the job title. The only really major downside to it is that it's not dual-status.

Because H-1B is "the" work permit there are so many regulations governing it, how many people can be hired in that category by a company before they have to advertise the job, a quota, labour certification, notification of layoffs, definition of what a "layoff" is, progression required for renewal, blah blah.

For me, and for others I've talked to on TNs, it's not so much about the "novelty" factor as it is about just better opportunities. In my field for example, even when the economy was doing better there just weren't a lot of job opportunities for recent university graduates in Canada. The field is largely dominated by people who refuse to retire, or refuse to hire people who are just starting out in their careers. It's not like that in the US. Yes, it's a "precarious" status to be in at times, but at least I'm being recognized in my field down here. Not so back home. I feel like Canada drives away its talent at times. I am only speaking about my field in general, and I don't know how it is in other fields, but it seems to be a recurring theme with people that I've talked to on TNs down here.

I think the Canadian government in the past just simply sent the wrong message as well. The Liberal government under Chretien seemed to suggest to Canadians this was in fact okay to do. Jean Chretien stated to the public: "You want to go the U.S., just go."

What kind of message does that send?

I agree with you about the people that refuse to retire are just simply arrogant too with hidden agendas. Basically, they don't want anyone to have anything else.

I've got to say although I'm always commenting on people's posts on here, from a personal standpoint having done the H-1B thing I personally think moving anywhere on any type of work permit such as H-1B, TN-1, whatever is a bad move unless you really are okay with the idea that it is a temporary assignment.

People are always on here asking about the technicalities of doing it but not often the logic of doing it.Essentially you are tied down to that employer and cannot easily change jobs. The one thing TN-1 does have going for it as far as I can see is that it is relatively easy to change jobs because the employer only needs to give you a job offer letter.Actually going to PR status from H-1B or TN-1 or anything is not a simple process. Yes it is slightly easier from H-1B but it's not easy.

But frankly the lesson I learned many years ago is that work permits of any type SUCK. I would never work anywhere ever again on a work permit unless I was 100% sure it would lead to some sort of permanent status quickly (which is next to impossible in the US unless you're EB-1 or maybe EB-2) or I was 100% sure I was okay with it being something I only did for a few years.Too many people move somewhere on a work permit and have no actual plan on what to do next.[/quote]

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All of the above is so true. It is really very stressful on a work permit and i think it makes sense to do it early one in one's career when experience overseas (US, Europe, Asia) can be really valuable for some people. The other reason to move would be an intra-company transfer which could be a cushy assignment. But to move on a 'local' work permit to another country e.g. IT contract etc. (and this includes US) is not so much fun anymore and offsets the 'coolness' or whatever it maybe.

I am also quite sure 'I that would never work anywhere ever again on a work permit unless I was 100% sure it would lead to some sort of permanent status quickly'. This is almost impossible in Europe unless you go the marriage route etc. Same as the US.

As Steve and Reba said, people have usually learnt this by doing it themselves and realizing it is not as rosy.

I can tell you one thing though. Within work permits, this US work permit regime is rather crappy. No unemployment benefits and one has to scramble to stay on by paying and filling a form etc. Too much stress in my opinion. I have seen that in some European countries, if you lose the job, you can stay on without stress until your permit is valid i.e they will not renew. But no issues until then. I find this US system rather weird. CAn't comment on Asian work permits as have never been there and don't really plan to...

As Steve said, all people want to know are the technical details of how to get a work permit. The decision itself has not been thought through.

-- Thu May 14, 2009 4:55 pm --

Unfortunately, some people just have to learn for themselves the precariousness of the TN, they can't just take someone else's word for it. Regardless of all the legalese on the forms and whatnot, they're still going to pack up all their worldly goods and head for the border.

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exactly...even though the distance is not that great to move back, one does get uprooted. A friend got a TN and got fired 5 months later...no rights etc. ' Stress out of control etc.

Precariousness' is the right word.

-- Thu May 14, 2009 4:58 pm --

I don't think TN-1 is as bad as H-1B which is what I was attempting to point out above until we got bogged down in legalese. TN-1 can be re-granted indefinitely and is so much easier to get than H-1B, the main sticking point with it always seems to be the job title. The only really major downside to it is that it's not dual-status.

Because H-1B is "the" work permit there are so many regulations governing it, how many people can be hired in that category by a company before they have to advertise the job, a quota, labour certification, notification of layoffs, definition of what a "layoff" is, progression required for renewal, blah blah.

....

yes between the two TN (especially with the 3 yrs now) wins somewhat with no quotas.

-- Thu May 14, 2009 4:59 pm --

I would never work anywhere ever again on a work permit unless I was 100% sure it would lead to some sort of permanent status quickly------


Steve,

In the UK, I guess it ie.a work permit leads to permanent status 'quickly' ?

-- Thu May 14, 2009 5:13 pm --

They will let you move all of your belongings into the US on a TN-1 visa. But when you go to renew, if they want to screw you over, they will hold that against you and refuse you entry by claiming that you are an immigrant and not a temporary worker, contrary to the status a TN-1 grants you.

You know, that is about the gist of things. Many times people post on this forum looking for info about selling everything back home, moving all their possessions and buying homes in the U.S. when working on TN-1's. It's a scary thought. TN-1 is a temporary visa with non-immigrant intent. Just having an American DL and other American ties (credit/bank cards, US titled/financed vehicle) will cause you a heck of a lot of trouble as a Canadian National at the border if you get the wrong CBP officer, even though it was legally obtained. When you're dealing with the rejection of a renewal or new petition at the border, things go south very fast when it's disclosed that there is property and other significant chattels stateside. They often do assume you have intent at that point.

With the current hyper-sensitive nature of the U.S. employment market and generalized 'anti-foreign workers' sentiment among the U.S.-born unemployed and certain political figures, it is a huge risk at best to move everything, buy houses and import vehicles on a TN-1.

Employment can come and go on an employers whim (thanks to 'at-will' laws) and there's no guarantee a job will last the length of the visa.

As for a governmental support net, forget it. Hard or impossible to get EI, no social assistance, no food stamps, nothing. If your landlord decides to sue you for breaking a lease because you've lost your job and can't get one down-the-road like a LPR or citizen, oh well. Ditto for mortage-holders should you buy a home. Ditto automotive finance companies if you purchased a new car stateside. They don't care. You are held responsible just like a U.S. citizen/LPR, they don't understand or care you cannot just get another job or EI benefits asap. If the state you work in issues you a state DL and takes your Canadian DL, turning it in to the consulate and then you lose your job, oh well. If your employer notifies USCIS as required, you get to drive home without one as they are typically aligned with your 1-94 in expiry.

You then have the stress of having uprooting the family (if they've come down) arranging an expedient move north and dealing with the importation of belongings new (i.e U.S. financed/titled car) and old back into Canada.

As foreign workers, there is no back-up plan, it's a 'get your things and leave NOW' policy with USCIS. They don't care, they are not accountable to us as foreign nationals. We are a temporary means to an end for an American employer and there are CBP officers who begrudge our ability under NAFTA to get work authorization in the U.S., even when we meet all the criteria as detailed in the NAFTA agreement. They have the ability to interpret the rules however they see fit, even if we don't always agree.

You best have the financial means in place for a move back north should your job end. You really need to think long and hard about such a move and weigh all the scenarios and their impact on your family. While it can be an exciting experience for you and your family, we've all read about or lived the horror stories of rejected renewals and job loss. I think it's important not to 'romanticize' living and working in the states under a TN-1. It can be as heartbreaking as it can be rewarding.

I don't mean to sound negative about the 'American experience', but having been through a rejection at Detroit (and the subsequent 30-days to "get my things and get out") experience, it would make me very hesitant to make any such commitment to moving my world to the U.S. without an 'intent to immigrate' approved form of visa, either employer-sponsored or by marriage.

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This post deserves to be made a 'sticky' titled 'Implications of moving to the US on a TN or any temporary status'...superb post.

I really am bewildered by people who have actually sold all and bought a house etc. on TN...while I have worked in the US on an H1, I made sure I did not mentally think I was there permanently until I got my Permanent Residence. I never did get it, and my mental preparation (I was ok with being there temporarily as I thought the experience was valuable and looking back, it was valuable) helped me get out of there quickly when the job/H1 ended as the company was basically trying to recruit only H1 workers (it was an American firm and not one of the Indian IT houses).

I hope the administrator can make this post sticky..

-- Thu May 14, 2009 5:23 pm --

That's why I just don't like the TN1 at all. There is just too much of your life up in the air contingent upon the mood and whim of some cranky US CBP. I've seen far too many stories about Canadians denied new TNs after they've settled their family in the US for a decade and have no life remaining in Canada. Or they've got a US job offer, so they sell their home and everything in Canada, drive to the border and then are refused, with nothing to go back to.

I honestly never did understand the "novelty" of wanting to live and work in the US. Especially not on such a precarious status as TN. To each their own I guess.

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Any temporary status in any work permit regime is precarious but reading sarnia girls stories makes me shudder as in Europe, most countries don't do this kind of crap. You are given 3 months or even upto the end of your permit in many cases to do everything and then leave. I really don't know how people uproot the family on a TN/temporary work permit. It's hard enough for a single person and then to move the family, car etc...i mean wow.

-- Thu May 14, 2009 5:24 pm --

Hi Reba,

In my case, the industry I work in (horticulture) tends to be very seasonal at home, it's GLH for nine months if you're lucky, then a four month layoff. When I was offered a job stateside (year-round in Charlotte,NC) it appealed not only as it was year-round, it was also an opportunity to learn more about the industry from a different angle, not to mention USDA growing zone. While it has been great in that aspect, not being able to feel settled isn't something I'd entertain again.

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So Sarnia girl, when you are ready to get settled, don't entertain it again.

So Sarnia girl, when you are ready to get settled, don't entertain it again.

LOL, I hear ya there!

I just joined this board today, posted about losing my job after a few months into it and what to do now. Some of these responses help. I think I'm screwed. I'll need to pay 7 months rent plus utilities and not even get to live there if I have to get my stuff and leave within 30 days. I'm just thankful I didn't buy a house down here. I imported my car from Canada and hope that I can export it back to Canada without issue (I did get my car title transfered and changed my license). That's not too bad, it's just the $$$ I'll be basically wasting on rent. I just wished I knew of this site before I took my ex-job here in the US. Chock it up to a life lesson learned the hard, expensive way. I will never, yes never, do this again.

I just joined this board today, posted about losing my job after a few months into it and what to do now. Some of these responses help. I think I'm screwed. I'll need to pay 7 months rent plus utilities and not even get to live there if I have to get my stuff and leave within 30 days. I'm just thankful I didn't buy a house down here. I imported my car from Canada and hope that I can export it back to Canada without issue (I did get my car title transfered and changed my license). That's not too bad, it's just the $$$ I'll be basically wasting on rent. I just wished I knew of this site before I took my ex-job here in the US. Chock it up to a life lesson learned the hard, expensive way. I will never, yes never, do this again.

I think you can stay by filing the relevant forms and paperwork for 6 months.

I just joined this board today, posted about losing my job after a few months into it and what to do now. Some of these responses help. I think I'm screwed. I'll need to pay 7 months rent plus utilities and not even get to live there if I have to get my stuff and leave within 30 days. I'm just thankful I didn't buy a house down here. I imported my car from Canada and hope that I can export it back to Canada without issue (I did get my car title transfered and changed my license). That's not too bad, it's just the $$$ I'll be basically wasting on rent. I just wished I knew of this site before I took my ex-job here in the US. Chock it up to a life lesson learned the hard, expensive way. I will never, yes never, do this again.

I think you can stay by filing the relevant forms and paperwork for 6 months.

Thanks for glimmer of hope. Would you know what relevant forms are necessary? Is it as easy as switching my TN to a visitors visa at the US border? I'm an honest person and do not want to be here if it's illegal. Thanks