Urgent please...trying again tomorrow for TN

Hello,

I went down to the border yesterday to get my TN, applying under the Computer Systems Analyst category. This category does in fact very closely describe the work that I do, specifically with SCADA systems. My offer letter reflects this and states that the new job is as a CSA.

Even so, I ran into trouble when the agent asked me to write out a further description of the job, and amongst the things I said, I used the word "programming" to refer to customizing screen layouts using existing user tools in already existing software (similar to changing your desktop settings in Windows). This was interpreted by the agent to mean programming/building the program from scratch.

Suddenly, they seemed to think I was a programmer trying to sneak in as a CSA. Once they went down that road, there was no changing their minds.

One agent told me I should go back to my employer and get a new letter allowing me to apply under the computer programmer category. I was completely flustered and stressed out by that time, and I didn't know what to do or say, as they were threatening to fine me and my employer for making a false application. I felt I had to diffuse the situation, so I told them I would get some additional documentation from my employer and I left.

I don't know exactly what the guy was trying to accomplish by telling me to re-apply as a programmer, as programmers cannot get TNs. And, the biggest irony here is that I am NOT a programmer -- I design, implement and monitor SCADA systems to make them more user friendly, secure and efficient. Plus, this is an absolutely legitimate offer from a very large, well-known company. My offer letter was drafted by my immigration lawyer and their legal department. I don't know how anything could be more straight-forward, and yet I went through living hell.

So, I now have a supplemental letter, drafted by my lawyer and signed by the head recruiter of the company that gives more detail about what the job entails. It specifically states, among other things: "This function interfaces routinely with X Company’s computer infrastructure, but is not at all characterized as “computer programming”".

I am planning to go back down and reapply tomorrow, and I would like some advice on how to approach it. First of all, they kept whatever it was that I wrote down yesterday, and I don't have a copy. Is that something that all agents at every crossing will have some kind of access to -- is it scanned and on my file (if they even do that)? What am I likely to encounter in terms of what is now in their system? Should I bring up what happened or wait for them to bring it up? What are they likely to say or throw at me as a result of what happened yesterday?

I was thinking that when I walk in, it might be best to just say that I went down a couple of days ago and was told that I needed some additional information from my employer, so I got that and have come back with it. Then if they bring anything up, just answer their questions as best I can. Then I start second guessing myself and feel that full disclosure about what happened would not be best right off the bat as they may think there were legitimate grounds for a refusal, when it really was about a misunderstanding.

-- Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:47 pm --

One additional question: I realize that programmers are not able to get TN visas, so I understand why that word might have raised a red flag. However, the NAFTA Handbook, which the agents are supposed to use for reference, from what I understand, states:

(H) The computer systems analyst category does not include programmers. A systems analyst is an information specialist who analyzes how data processing can be applied to the specific needs of users and who designs and implements computer-based processing systems. Systems analysts study the organization itself to identify its information needs and design computer systems that meet those needs. Although the systems analyst will do some programming, the TN category has not been expanded to include programmers.

I tried to explain to them that my job has many different facets, and that there is sometimes a bit of programming in a given part of a given project -- but that didn't fly with them. If the NAFTA Handbook itself directly states that CSAs do some programming, why was this such an issue? I was thinking that if they are still giving me a hard time about this point, perhaps I should have a copy of the handbook printed out and show them that passage. Then again, perhaps that would only make them angry. I really don't know -- anything I do or say seems just as likely to be the wrong thing, from what I experienced yesterday. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

-- Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:51 pm --

One additional question: I realize that programmers are not able to get TN visas, so I understand why that word might have raised a red flag. However, the NAFTA Handbook, which the agents are supposed to use for reference, from what I understand, states:

(H) The computer systems analyst category does not include programmers. A systems analyst is an information specialist who analyzes how data processing can be applied to the specific needs of users and who designs and implements computer-based processing systems. Systems analysts study the organization itself to identify its information needs and design computer systems that meet those needs. Although the systems analyst will do some programming, the TN category has not been expanded to include programmers.

I tried to explain to them that my job has many different facets, and that there is sometimes a bit of programming in a given part of a given project -- but that didn't fly with them. If the NAFTA Handbook itself directly states that CSAs do some programming, why was this such an issue? I was thinking that if they are still giving me a hard time about this point, perhaps I should have a copy of the handbook printed out and show them that passage. Then again, perhaps that would only make them angry. I really don't know -- anything I do or say seems just as likely to be the wrong thing, from what I experienced yesterday. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

If you bring a copy of our own Law to us it would be highly insulting. We know the Law. The fact that a lawyer is involved always raises a huge red flag for a TN.

You are allowed to re-apply, but don't leave details out. Any Officer you get, even from another port, will know why you were refused. The problem here is that way too many people abuse CSA and are actually Programmers.

Re-apply, present more information, and don't throw Lawyer, or Law at the Officer. Just be honest.

Thanks for the information. That is what I was thinking was the best thing to do.......ie just go in there and say I applied a couple of days ago and this is what happened and this extra information is what I have and hope it works out. The frustrating thing here is that I fit the CSA designation to a tee, I'm a systems guy, a network guy, I analyse networks, I design networks, I'm not and never have been a coder. I hire programmers when I want something done, but that's a whole world unto itself that I am not a part of.

I'll be what I have been from the beginning.......polite, respectful, honest and having every bit of information that has been requested. I probably have only one more shot at presenting my case.

I won't pass judgement yet on the process until after my visit coming up (which will be delayed until Friday morning now because of new signed copies of documents being couriered up). I will say this..........that it's hard to imagine how to be more prepared with regards to documents that what I have, and what I do is exactly what a CSA is.

Yes it was very painful last time but we'll see how this goes. I'll report back as to the results. Stay tuned.

I think another reason not to go on a weekend. Make sure the border you go to has a NAFTA OFFICER.

Which border did you go to by the way
Thanks

There are no NAFTA officers at any of our border crossings, and in fact, I was told there is no such thing.

As for a lawyer's involvement being a red flag, I would assume that most professionals use an immigration lawyer to process a TN application, as I have done. Not planning to mention it (no reason to), but I don't see why using one should be a red flag.

Sure they do i always go to Buffalo and i know their is a NAFTA Officer in Buffalo.

They don't have them here, that's all I can tell you.

There are only a few designated NAFTA Officers left in the USA. Every Officer is suppose to be able to adjudicate a TN. As far as the lawyer goes, most people do not use one. Big companies like Microsoft, Adobe...etc. use lawyers, but the average employer does not. Thus the red flag. Getting a TN is a very simple procedure, unless you are not qualified.

Junoon, Buffalo is one of the last ports to have a dedicated NAFTA Officer. Most do not.

Hi Lawsrlaws,

The company that wants to hire me is one of the largest of its kind in the world, with over 20,000 employees. Their head recruiter is now giving me a more detailed job description that explains what I will be doing and specifically states that this is not a programming position (it was supposed to arrive today but there was a mail delay). I am well-qualified for the position and have not lied to the border agents. And yet, there they were, quite literally yelling at me and threatening to fine both me and the company for making a false application!

I am not and have never been a programmer, and my job history reflects that. I would have thought this was as close to a "no brainer" as one could get in terms of a straight forward, simple, TN application. I am a polite guy, did not raise my voice or try to be challenging to them. The company that is offering me a job is extremely reputable, and the position is clearly stated.

Any yet, I have this sinking feeling now that this fantastic, perhaps once in a lifetime opportunity is going to be lost due to the misconception that I am a programmer trying to sneak in as a CSA. I don't know why they would even begin to think that the head recruiter of a multi-billion dollar company would stick his neck out and lie to hire a programmer, when programmers are a dime a dozen in the U.S., and you can outsource that work to India these days.

I was so shocked and shaken by what happened the other day that I have lost all faith in this being at all a clear, logical process based on the facts presented. It was truly awful.

Nonetheless, once I have the letter in hand, I will be going back, and I am planning to go very early in the morning so that I avoid the crowds, which I think add to everyone's stress. I am hoping that if it is quiet, the agent will not feel rushed or hassled, as they seemed to the other day with all the people piling up in the office. I will try to be as clear and straightforward as possible, and I will continue to be honest. I would like to believe that this should be good enough, but the other day proved otherwise.

It's really too bad, because the first officer I was dealing with the other day was very nice, all was going well, then he got called off to go deal with something else, and from the second the new guy started walking over, I could tell by his expression and body language that he doesn't like the very idea of the TN applicant, and I was no exception. I don't think I would have had any issue whatsoever had it all stayed in the hands of the first guy, who seemed quite level headed and fair.

I personally find it appalling that a matter of such importance should depend upon the personality, mood, attitude, etc. of any individual. It should be objective and simple: you have the job offer, you are qualified, you have a clean criminal record, you get your TN. But it has been proven that the same set of documents can get a "pass" from one guy and get rejected by another. This subjectivity is unbelievable to me.

I was further discouraged by being informed that the hearing you are supposed to be able to get if you feel you have been wrongly rejected is a farce -- that they will basically rubber stamp whatever the agent said. Has that been the experience of anyone here? If I do get rejected again, I would lose the job, I'm sure, as they can't wait around for a hearing process that I imagine would take months. Nonetheless, I feel I should appeal that decision, should it get made, on principle alone. Any thoughts on this subject?

All i can say is best of luck to you. I have a good feeling that this might work out. Don't be discouraged their will be plenty of more opportunity in the future as well.

i'll pray for ya man

Take care and let us know what happens
Thanks
M