Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:05 pm-
/---Its interesting you mention the Inuit, First Nations ect ect alongside of representation. Tell me, how does the Queen represent them?---/
The Queen and Governor General represent ALL Canadians, which includes Inuit and First Nations citizens. This is because the Queen is the sovereign of the Canadian Crown, and the Crown is the symbol of the State, which is made up of all the people. The Crown must look out for their rights regardless of ethnicity, religion or economic status.
There is an especially strong bond between many First Nations and the Crown through treaties which have been signed through the centuries. These treaties go beyond the government, which changes over time, and are agreements between the continuous Crown and the First Nations people only.
As Chief Donald Maracle said: "We recall, with great honour, the political and military bond of mutual affection and alliance that has marked the relationship between the Mohawk people and the British and Canadian Crown for the last three centuries."
If you mean, how does a “white woman in Britain” represent First Nations peoples, then you may as well ask how a Chinese born refugee can represent them as Governor General, or how possibly a man of Pakistani descent as Canadian President would represent them?
/---As for Separtaion, I bet the French Canadians would be happier if their head of State was not a British person whos ancestors ruled Canada and fought wars with their ancestors.---/
Why do you lump all "French Canadians" in with separatists? There are many French speaking citizens in Canada who do not live in Quebec, and thus are not under the influence of the Bloc or Parti Quebecois. There are even many in Quebec who don’t wish the province to succeed from Canada.
As for the "wars"-- battles were fought between British and French colonists in North America. But that was 250 years ago, and the present Queen of Canada cannot be blamed for the actions of her ancestors. What is important to remember is that these battles were extensions of wars going on in Europe, and that France eventually just gave away most of its North American territories to the British through treaty.
We also need to remember that it was under the British Crown that citizens of Lower Canada were able to keep their traditions of civil law, Catholicism, and French language. Indeed, French Canadians did not join in the American Revolution (though France was aiding the American rebels), and instead chose to remain where their religion and traditions were protected—with the British Crown. All this yelling of "Anglophone oppression!" comes only from a loud-mouthed few politicians who twist the past to their convenience.
Still, do you honestly believe that a Canadian president would appease Quebec sovereigntists? A slew of Quebecois prime ministers over the past 40 years have not quieted them. After all, the separation issue has never been about what king or queen reigned in Canada, but about money, language and culture—neither of which the Crown has oppressed in the past, or oppresses now.
Indeed, it is the Quebec sovereigntists who would, most likely, take the post of the Canadian president and demand it be filled with Francophone people, and/or that the votes of Quebecois count for more, should Anglophone Canadians outweigh them. If this demand is not met? Separation! And so, the office of Canadian president would only lead to more division.
And most important of all, in 1982 the majority of Canadians, through their elected officials in the 10 Provincial Legislatures, the House of Commons and the (unelected) Senate, agreed to have their Queen sign the Constitution Act which entrenched the Canadian monarchy. The Crown should not be obliterated to appease the sensitivities of an ill-informed few. In Canada a minority should not control the majority.
Anyway, the British Crown is no longer a power in Canada. Since the 1931 Statute of Westminster Canada has had its own Canadian Crown. So, even though our monarch lives in Britain, Quebec sovereigntists can not claim that a British Queen 'rules' over them. As Elizabeth II is also queen of Australia, New Zealand, Belize, Jamaica, Tuvalu, etc., they may as well complain that the Queen of Jamaica “rules” over Canada.
/---Firstly it wont cost too much money and referendums happen in other countries all the time. Heck, the Swiss have had about 400 so far.---/
Australia had a referendum in 1999 to see if Australians wanted to move from being a constitutional monarchy to a republic. The debate went on for more than a decade before that, including numerous commitees of investigation, etc., and then a nation-wide referendum. The total cost was estimated to be in excess of $800 million.
In Canada one federal election alone costs $250 million.
Switzerland may have many referendums, but what is the size and population of that country? Is it as large or diverse a country as Canada? I don’t believe so.
/---Canada will finally have what all countires should-a democratically elected leader who Canada can call there own.---/
Canada has a democratically elected leader-- the prime minister. I don't think he or she 'belongs' to any other countries.
/---Where is this DEMOCRATIC Canadian head of state?---/
Democracy isn't ALL about elections. This just goes to show you too have been brainwashed by too much U.S. television.
Democracy is about having a government chosen by the people to speak for them politically—and Canada has that in our parliament. We elect our members of parliament, and they choose a leader, the prime minister, who then forms a government made up of Ministers of the Queen.
Twice in our history (1867 and 1982) Canadians have chosen the monarch and governor general to hold the executive powers of Canada. Thus they are vested with their positions and powers only because the Canadian constitution, the supreme law of all Canadians, says so. As you know, change the constitution and the Queen is no longer a queen.
Also, though not elected, the Queen, as sovereign of the Crown, and her representative the governor general, are democratic because their duties are outlined in the constitution, both the written document and convention. As members of the Crown they must guarantee and protect the democratic and human rights of Canadians. Elected officials can abuse the powers they are given with their office-- this has been seen time and time again in many countries around the world. The Crown must ensure that this never happens and that the government in Canada is always stable and responsible. Thus it has the executive power to dissolve government, dismiss prime ministers, call elections, etc., should the government or prime minister ever try to abuse their powers or if a governmental crisis arises.
You may ask how it is guaranteed that the sovereign or governor general will never abuse their powers. Well, the governor general can be removed by the sovereign. And the sovereign can be removed by Canadians. Should the king or queen flagrantly abuse their executive powers, they can be removed from the throne by the Canadian governments – by the same method they were installed by the BNA in 1867 and the Constitution Act in 1982.
/---And speaking of costs what about the thousands of dollars Canadians paid when the Queen came to visit. And for what? Painting the jet to Royal Standards for one.---/
Who else should pay for the Canadian sovereign? The Norwegians? Do Bolivians pay for the President of the United States to fly around?
No, when the Queen is asked by her Canadian government to undertake a visit – whether to Canada or internationally – the Canadian government pays for it. This is identical to any other government paying for their sovereign or president to travel.
As for “painting the jet to Royal Standards”… I have no idea what you’re talking about. HM flies as Queen of Canada in the same RCAF jet that most other Canadian dignitaries travel on, and it remains in RCAF colours. It is only the Prime Minister who has his own two luxury Challenger jets.
What are these “Royal Standards” anyway?
/---Shes Canadian? Thats great! Just one thing-what Province is she from because last time I checked Britain is not in Canada. Does she have Canadian parents? Citizenship? Family? Passports? Does she live in Canada? The answer to these are No, No, No No and No.---/
You’re looking at this far too simplisticly. In a pretty xenophobic manner, as well.
I’d like to ask you—does someone have to be born in Canada to be Canadian? Does someone have to have Canadian parents to be Canadian? Does someone have to have Canadian family to be Canadian? Does someone have to live in Canada to be Canadian?
The answers are: No, no, no and no.
Many immigrants are not born in Canada but go there and gain citizenship to become Canadian. None of them have Canadian parents or Canadian family. There are also many around the world who have never set foot on Canadian soil but gained Canadian citizenship because their parents were Canadian citizens.
As for the Queen’s citizenship—you need to understand that a monarch cannot be a citizen of the country for which they are sovereign. In all her realms citizenship and passports are issued by the Crown, and so she cannot swear allegiance to herself or issue herself a passport. So, though she lives for the most part in Britain, she is not a British citizen, and thus does not hold a British passport.
Even though she is not a British citizen and holds no British passport, does anyone doubt her role as Queen of Britain or claim she is not British? No. Then why should anyone doubt her as Queen of Canada and claim she is not Canadian?
It is legally and logically impossible to claim that the sovereign of Canada, as written into the Canadian constitution, the body that issues Canadian citizenship, the symbol of the Canadian State, is not Canadian.
If you still think the Canadian head of state should be a Canadian citizen, you might like to know that Prince Charles is currently a British and Canadian citizen and holds passports for both countries. He will, of course, relinquish these when he becomes king.
/---I like how Monarchists always fear that becoming a republic will turn us into Americans.---/
Please quote me the words I said that implied I fear Canada becoming a republic will make us more like the United States.
/---Canadians and Americans are different-not ebtter not worse just different.---/
Certainly.
I think that retaining the Crown just because it makes Canada different to the U.S. really is a weak argument.
While our monarchy does make us different from the U.S., it is only in that it gives us a different system of government than they have. But I also think the responsible government—the Westminster type of government – we’ve had under the Crown has, in a way, affected Canadian culture. I don’t want to get into generalisations, but I believe that Canadians, for the most part, believe more in diplomacy and negotiation, rather than battle and war. We are (or should be) more unified under our Crown—a continuous institution with people to represent us, whereas U.S. Americans are unified only under their flag or constitution -- inanimate objects which change over time.
Its not that removing the Crown will make Canadians more like U.S. citizens, but that removing the Crown will take away a subtle but entrenched part of Canadian culture. Its been a part of our daily lives for centuries – for the most part in very inconspicuous ways, but there none the less in our laws, judicial system, customs, attitudes, expectations, and so on.
Take it away, and we’ll find ourselves asking, what do we replace it with? How will people adjust to this new way of thinking? Will it really be any better? Is an office of the president suited to the Canadian way of life?
Its not a huge question, or one which drives my argument for the Crown. But, it’s one to be considered, none-the-less.
/---"Canada until 35 years ago was proud of its monarchy. Since then, however, U.S. American culture coming into Canadian homes via television and movies has led Canadians to become more and more United States-ified."
Well that and we want our own head of state.---/
First—who do you mean by “we”? Surely you’re not speaking for all Canadians, or even the majority of them.
Second—Can you then agree that too much U.S. media in Canada, and not enough education, has led a number of Canadians to have a warped knowledge of their government? How then can these people be expected to make well grounded decisions about their government and Crown?
They ignorantly believe the Queen of Britain to reign in Canada, and think the U.S. Presidential system is the only way to go just because U.S. TV constantly feeds the message that they have the ideal democracy and the rest of the world should be re-created in their image.
Too many Canadians need to stop being educated by the television, and start learning how things really are in the country. If they then want to move to a different system, then let them feel that. But they cannot form opinions on misinformation and ignorance.
/---How does the monarchy represent Canada? The Queen is not Canadian and does not live there.---/
I’ve covered this already.
/---I am from Ontario and have never been to the western provinces, would I be the best choice to speak for Alberta? No, Should I rule Alberta from a far? Certainly not.---/
What does geography have to do with it? Does the Federal government in Ottawa have no say in Alberta simply because Ottawa is in Ontario? No. Does the U.N. have no say in other countries because it is in the United States? Does the Pope mean nothing to Catholics around the world because he is in the Vatican?
And you say “I have never been to the western provinces.” Well, the Queen and the Governor General have been to all the provinces and territories in Canada. And they would go more often if the government asked them to do so.
/---“In the end you're left with disillusioned republicans who don't know the difference between the Canadian Crown and the Canadian government.”
Sure we do, we have a Canadian government and the Canadian crown does not exist.---/
I quote you from your post on Dec. 12: “If we had an elected Canadian government that the people would choose, people might take more pride in it.”
As I said, Canada already has an elected government. So, what exactly were you trying to say again?
How do you possibly claim the Canadian Crown does not exist?? Please explain that one.
/---Again, superpowering has nothing to do with it however, seeing compleat democracy in Canada would be nice.---/
Canada and many other countries around the world function perfectly well as constitutional monarchies—indeed, 8 of the top 15 countries to live in the world are constitutional monarchies (6 of the top 10, and 4 of the top 5). Do you feel that Norway, Sweden, Australia, Netherlands, Canada, Japan, Denmark, Britain, or Luxembourg are not democracies? (Well, I know your ideas on Canada.) How about Thailand, New Zealand, Spain, Jamaica, or Belize?
So, tell me how it is that Canada is lacking in democracy, and please don’t say it is simply because we don’t elect a president. Show me how people who live in republics are more secure and happier. Show me how republics are better.
In fact, I realise you don't want us to move to the U.S. system, so then tell me what republic you do want Canada to be. Tell me how you think an appointed president will not be a yes-man to the Prime Minister. Tell me how an elected president will not take sides, wont be bought out with election donations, wont favour those who voted for them over others. As a matter of fact, tell me how a politically elected president can ever remain apolitical in a time of governmental crisis. How can this person, who owes their position either to the prime minister or an electorate ever remain unbiased when they have to act as arbitrators? How will another elected politician in Ottawa make Canadians happy? If politics are so divisive in Canada how will yet another election every four years bring us together?
A lot of questions there, republican. I look forward to your answers.